The gay rights movement is more than just wanting equal rights before the law, it's about wanting approval in the eyes of all. There are those of us who believe that certain behaviors are immoral therefore harmful to the individual and ultimately the state. Whether or not you agree with my beliefs, I have a right to hold them. (Just as you have a right to believe that forced female circumcision is immoral, even if you lived in a country where it was practiced.)I predict that the legalization of gay marriage will not be enough for those advocating for it. The next step will be to try to force churches to grant their spiritual blessing on the unions. I'm sure many will cave, but the Catholic Church, for one, never will. We believe that marriage is a sacrament that by definition can only exist between a man and a woman. It's not something that we have the power to change because we didn't create man and woman, God did.So, if the Church cannot bend, those who refuse to stay faithful and not bend either will be persecuted for their beliefs. Wait and see...and slip me some bread through the barb wire fence once and a while, for old time's sake, will ya?
The gay rights movement is more than just wanting equal rights before the law, it's about wanting approval in the eyes of all. Wow, human being wanting approval instead of scorn and discrimination. How unamerican.Yes, you have a right to your beliefs. But in the past when those beliefs were held against Jews, Blacks, Women, and other minorities, your side lost out. And religion was used PLENTY to prop up those discriminations too. We believe that marriage is a sacrament that by definition can only exist between a man and a woman. It's not something that we have the power to change because we didn't create man and woman, God did.That's fine...but marriage is also a legal set of rights given to two people. It's not and never has been strictly a religious institution. How is it you believe God created men and women....but he fell short when he created gay people?Oh that's right. It's a choice, right? Are you really still holding onto that long ago disproved idea?The next step will be to try to force churches to grant their spiritual blessing on the unions. I'm sure many will cave, but the Catholic Church, for one, never will.Some already have. They haven't 'caved'.....they have realized that it's just as easy to follow a brand of Christianity that doesn't speak to discrimination, and scorn.It's all about equal rights under the law. Plain and simple.
It's also all about love and inclusion. Love thy neighbor as thyself? Does that sound exclusive? Is there an addendum to that commandment that says, unless he or she is gay?Justine, you comment is stunning in it's myopic ignorance. You have a child, I see. If your child grows up to be gay...? What then? Do you think God created gay men and women to be hated and discriminated against? Are you so naive as to believe that it's a choice. If so I can assure you that there would be many more gay people than there are. Please believe me when I tell you that if I were able to choose, I'd be gay and mated to someone I understand. As it is, I've been married three times to men I ended up loathing since each believed he was somehow more deserving of the right to do nothing at home but sit on his ass watching sports, drinking beer and wait for me to bring him whatever he wanted while I do it all--work outside the home and work inside the home.I don't mean to be insulting to you, but you are a Catholic who has forgotten Christ's most simple and loving teachings. Christ would not recognize a religion as Christian that excluded from the scarements those whose crime was love.
I predict that the legalization of gay marriage will not be enough for those advocating for it. The next step will be to try to force churches to grant their spiritual blessing on the unions. I'm sure many will cave, but the Catholic Church, for one, never will.Well, that's just irrational.I'm a strong advocate of gay marriage.I am likewise as strong an advocate of you and your church's right to practice your own ignorance and celebrate your own centuries of murder and torture in whatever way you see fit.It's actually the same basic principle that dictates my beliefs.
OK, where to start...?I think that instead of shooting back at every point, it might be better for me to explain my belief about the nature of sexuality and marriage. Sex not simply good. It's even better than great. It is the most intimate expression of love between two people. Sex, by it's very nature, MEANS something. "It means I give ALL of myself to YOU and ONLY YOU." If there is no total giving of oneself, if one partner is holding something back from the other--their fidelity, their fertility, their physical body--then the act becomes a lie. Therefore, it is not just homosexual relationships that are not expressions of truth, but also sex outside of marriage, adultery, birth control, and masturbation as well. We are harmed when we lie to ourselves, and we cannot be as fully alive as we were intended to be. I am not opposed to gay marriage because I don't want gay people to be happy, but because I want them to be TRULY happy. I want all people to be able to have wonderful friends to talk to, and celebrate with, and lean on in hard times--but I don't want any people to hurt themselves and each other by telling lies either in their words or actions.Are homosexual desires a choice? Probably not. But acting on those desires is always a choice. If I had heterosexual desires for someone other than my spouse, they wouldn't necessarily be my fault, but if I chose to indulge them and act on them, that would be wrong.Do I think it is "fair" that some people can't experience the joy of sexuality the way it was intended because of their homosexual tendencies? No. Just as I don't think it is fair that handicapped children can't experience the joy of running through the grass in summer, or that the elderly lose the joy of sight and sound, or that some people have been so abused by others that they never experience joy at all. But I believe that everything that happens in THIS life is really not about this life at all. It's all really about the next one, and our struggles here are our journey there. I said before that sex not simply good, and that it's even better than great. What it really is, is HOLY. Two people come together as one with the God of love, and sometimes at its most beautiful moment the most beautiful thing happens--a new life is created.OK, that's all I have to say. And I now I have to wonder if I'm going to be blocked from ever commenting on this blog again.
First....I think you know you won't ever be blocked from commenting. You have a point of view and are always welcome to express it.Now....(cracks knuckles and stretches arms)....Therefore, it is not just homosexual relationships that are not expressions of truth, but also sex outside of marriage, adultery, birth control, and masturbation as wellWhat about couples that are infertile? Is their love a lie? Your explanation of why homosexual relationships are not expressions of truth (as you see it) doesn't hold up to your own standards.Are homosexual desires a choice? Probably not.That's a start! You still cling to the word probably....but it's a start. But acting on those desires is always a choice. If I had heterosexual desires for someone other than my spouse, they wouldn't necessarily be my fault, but if I chose to indulge them and act on them, that would be wrong.So you just believe that homosexuals should NEVER be allowed to have sex? That's a tall order there Justine. Not to mention insanely unfair. To say someone should not have sex with the person they love.....I just can't wrap my head around that one.You seem to be under the impression that homosexuals don't have long lasting meaningful monogamous relationships. That's pure insanity and CLEARLY untrue.Not to mention that saying that "being gay isn't a choice, but having gay sex is".....is very much like saying "being black isn't a choice, but going out in public is". Discrimination.Your religion teaches that Muslims and Hindus are not getting into the 'kingdom of heaven'. Why should THEY be allowed to marry? What’s the point?Just because something is supposedly not in line with your religion doesn’t mean it should be denied rights from the government (and believe me, you still haven’t successfully argued that homosexuality is NOT in line with Christianity....it's not in the ten commandments, and Jesus never spoke of it).Two human beings, in love and committed to one another. What in the world is wrong with that? Your explanations fall short of making a case against two people in a committed loving relationship.Two people come together as one with the God of love, and sometimes at its most beautiful moment the most beautiful thing happens--a new life is created.One again.... that’s a nice description, but it doesn't account for couples who don’t or can't have kids. Are you saying they should not be allowed to marry either?Once again.... bottom line.... the problem comes down to the GOVERNMENT (which you have multiple grievances with as well) telling two people that they can have rights that two other people can’t. For NO GOOD REASON.
Nope. Not inconsistent at all. Infertile couples aren't deliberately withholding their fertility from each other. The same goes for what I will delicately call "marital relations" when the woman is not ovulating. Sex is both procreative (child producing) and unitive (the relationship part). Once you start separating one of these from the other, you start trouble. I.e. woman can be seen simply as breeding machines (which they are not) or on the other extreme, sex can becomes just a selfish self-gratifying act. Anyway, our differences here really hinge on the existence of God. If there is a God then it would make sense that he designed us this way. If not, well then anything goes. And I mean anything, because you have no grounds to tell anyone that they can't do what feels right to them. So...about that God thing. I know that he exists just like I knew you existed before I met you. He communicates with me, just not in e-mails. So why do you think I'm lying to you?
Infertile couples aren't deliberately withholding their fertility from each other.Neither are gay couples. Anyway, our differences here really hinge on the existence of God.No, not really. There are PLENTY of folks who are Christian that don't have any issues with homosexuals or gay marriage.If there is a God then it would make sense that he designed us this way.So he didn't create homosexuals?I know that he exists just like I knew you existed before I met you. He communicates with me, just not in e-mails. So why do you think I'm lying to you?I don't think you are lying. I believe that you believe. I don't think you are lying to me anymore than you think Osama Bin Laden, Tom Cruise, Joseph Smith, or Benjamin Netanyahu are lying when they state their steadfast belief in 'god'.
1. By their very nature two males cannot reproduce. (1 Sperm+ 1 sperm=2 sperm, whereas 1 sperm+1 egg=new human life.) So there is a deliberate decision to enter into a sexual act that by its very nature is infertile. Infertile heterosexual relationships by their nature are not, despite whatever plumbing might be broken.2. I mean the differences you and I have.3. God created all things perfectly. But he gave man and woman free will, and through their choice sin came into the world. (I know you're familiar with Genesis.) We live in a fallen world, where all things that were meant to be good, beautiful and true are subject to decay, distortion and perversion--the earth, our bodies, our minds, our relationships with each other, etc. That's why some babies are born without limbs, and others with varying degrees of mental illness. There are men who believe that they will be happy if they have a sexual relationship with a child, and men who believe they will be happy if they have a sexual relationship with another man. (You still have never given me a good reason why the first man is wrong to act on his desires and the second man is right. Their desires are equally strong and real to them.) 4. Ah, but I don't think Osama Bin Laden, Tom Cruise, Joseph Smith, or Benjamin Netanyahu are necessarily lying when they say they believe in God!Sure, some people might lie about knowing God in order to have power over others, but many others just know him imperfectly. I know YOU exist, but I only know a very little bit about you. My impressions and assumptions about you could be very off the mark, but that does not negate the fact that you exist and I know you.And if you think I'm not lying to you, then you must think I am insane. Because only insane people are so far removed from reality that they hear and talk to beings who do not exist.Time to be a school bus....adios amigo!
So there is a deliberate decision to enter into a sexual act that by its very nature is infertile.Same as an infertile couple. The logic doesn't hold up. I keep looking in the Bible for the section where Jesus says that gay people shouldn't have the same rights as straight people....but I just can't find it ! I mean the differences you and I have.We aren't all that different. I just believe in one less god than you do. Otherwise, I think we actually have tons in common. Loving families, a desire to do good, lead happy productive lives, etc. etc. etc.There are men who believe that they will be happy if they have a sexual relationship with a child, and men who believe they will be happy if they have a sexual relationship with another man. Be careful there. Drawing parralels between homosexuality and pedophilia is intellectually dishonest, cruel, and uncalled for.When two men, or women, love each other and enter into a CONSENTING ADULT RELATIONSHIP, then there is by definition, no crime being commited.Sure, some people might lie about knowing God in order to have power over others, but many others just know him imperfectly.And for that, your god will make sure they roast in eternal torture and damnation for all eternity.Harsh.And if you think I'm not lying to you, then you must think I am insane.Nah. That's a bit much. You have a set of beliefs that you feel strongly about. That's fantastic actually. Better than many of the half-wits who spend their days watching reality television and eating buckets of cheese doodles.You have some different beliefs and opinions that I do. Doesn't lead me to label you insane.It does make me enjoy picking on you a bit more.....but that's just me.
If I insist I'm telling you the truth about communicating with a Divine Being I have to be:1. Lying2. Insane3. Telling you the truthThose are the only logical choices. Which is it? :)
Those are the only choices you are giving me. They aren't the only choices.My Mother, Sister, Grandmother...they all REALLY believe in God and Jesus and the whole story as well. I wouldn't say they are lying or insane. Well, I might say my Mother is insane.....but certainly not to her face! (jk)If anything, from the limited list you give me, I would say you are telling the truth (and then under my breath I would add as you see it.Do I still have a coffee invitiation, or am I pressing my proverbial luck? :-p
Just to clarify: just because I stuck them both in the same sentence did not mean I was comparing the actions of pedophiles to the actions of consenting homosexuals. I was merely trying to get you to admit that there are some actions that are objectively evil, which would be impossible if we were all just the result of atoms randomly colliding into each other.Yes, we're still on for coffee. But I think I'm also going to have to get together with your mother and sister and grandmother someday too to talk about their boy...
Thank you for the clarification. It is appreciated as I didn't want to have the impression you thought that way.I was merely trying to get you to admit that there are some actions that are objectively evilOf course there are. I just don't see being born a certain way (black, jewish, gay, straight, fat, etc.) as being any kind of evil.My grandmother doesn't know, she couldn't handle it I'm afraid. My Mother knows but pretends she doesn't. My sister knows and goes out of her way to avoid discussing religion with me in any way, shape, or form. I do her the favor of not bringing it up as well (although the darwin fish on the back of my car STAYS!).
Ho-hum. It's just me, twiddling my thumbs down here, waiting for you to tell me what options I left off my list. "The truth according to how I see it" means I think I am communicating with a being that doesn't exist, and puts me in the "insane" category. Quick, call some of your government buddies to take my kids away!
You are too funny. Are we deflecting from my questions!?It's hard to believe sometimes that you are my sister! What would Mom say!!!?
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