I wouldn't know what "atheists" use as moral standards.
Atheism isn't a theology or philosophy.
It is the lack of belief in a supernatural being. That's all.
Your question would be like asking where do bald people get their morals from. Doesn't make sense.
My own morals come from a basic belief in treating others in the manner that I would like to be treated myself.
Don't cause harm to others. If it doesn't affect you or anyone else, it's none of your bees-wax.
Along that lines.
There is no argument that morals for Humans comes from religion. They don't. That's just fact.
Where do you get your morals from?
The Bible has SOME decent moral ideas, but it also contains plenty of batshit crazy ones as well (slavery, polygamy, incest, stoning, etc.).
Morals are personal. Laws are based on society and the people living in them. All you need to know about letting relgion dictate morality and laws can be found by paying a visit to Saudi Arabia. Enjoy.
including Christianity where it's often phrased, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
To bad not everyone shares your personal morality. Guys like Hitler for example.
Hitler: Get in the oven, you gay-loving, black-loving, Jew-loving dog.
Lemmy: Wait a minute, you can't do this to me! My personal morality wouldn't allow me to do it to you.
Hitler: So what. My personal morality is "I'm in charge, so I do whatever the hell I want."
Lemmy: But you can't do that.
Hitler: Why not?
Lemmy: Because it's wrong.
Hitler: Why do I care what you think is wrong? I don't give a batshit about your personal morality, and I resent that you are trying to impose it on me. I'm stronger than you. So, get in.
--
See, once morality is viewed as "personal" you are at the mercy of the people in power. If they are decent human beings, then you're OK. But if not, lovely little tourist attractions like Dachau might start to spring up. (In the extreme, I know, but it is possible.)
I'm sure you are familiar with the term "natural law"--the theory that there exist laws that are set by nature and therefore have validity everywhere. (A brief overview: http://www.radicalacademy.com/philnaturallaw.htm)
I believe that you have said in past conversations that you acknowledge the existence of some of these objective laws. (Sexual abuse of a child, for example, is objectively wrong.) The existence of these existing natural laws implies that morality is not personal, but communal.
I asked where atheists get there morals from PRECISELY because it makes as much sense as asking where bald people get their morals from. They get them from nowhere. They pick and choose their "personal morality" from whatever dish looks good to them at the time, or maybe they don't even bother to even THINK but simply sit on the couch and stuff their face with Cheetos all day long.
If you told me that the number of people who are as naturally virtuous as you, Lemmy, are swelling, I would not be so concerned. But I cannot get excited to hear that there is an increase in the number of people who believe morality is a personal decision. Some "personal moralities" are evil, and since laws are determined by the votes of individuals, what is to stop our country from becoming another Nazi Germany if evil carries the popular vote?
"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." -Martin Luther King.
To answer the question, "Where do you get your morals from?" If you mean "morals" as in "the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character" the best explanation of morality I believe is found in the teachings of the Catholicism. A good resource is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I'm sure you can google it yourself.
including Christianity where it's often phrased, "Love your neighbor as yourself."Right alongside "death to first born children" and "kill your son to prove you love me".
To bad not everyone shares your personal morality. Guys like Hitler for example. We agree.
Hitler: Why do I care what you think is wrong? I don't give a batshit about your personal morality, and I resent that you are trying to impose it on me. I'm stronger than you. So, get in.Yes, it's scary when twisted morals are given power isn't it?
But I cannot get excited to hear that there is an increase in the number of people who believe morality is a personal decision. You sound like you don't have much faith in people. And you sound like you have even less faith in people who don't have to attest their values to an invisible creator.
I'm more afraid of people who NEED something or someone telling them what's right or wrong. People like those that joined the Nazi party you mentioned. Or those that mutilate the genitals of children because their "leader" tells them "god" wants them to.
It's the followers we need to be afraid of, not those that can think for themselves.
Almost like you were making my argument for me there.
"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." -Martin Luther King.Great quote from a great man. If he were alive today he'd probably be labeled a subversive homeland terrorist by Faux News and Wing Nut Daily.
I believe is found in the teachings of the Catholicism. A good resource is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I'm sure you can google it yourself.I'm glad that works for you......but I'm familiar with the morality, leadership, and history of the Catholic Church, and it's just not something I could be a follower of.
I am so tired of the he or she is "a Christian" thing when I am about to do business with someone. What exactly does that mean?
Other than career, one of the things I left this valley for was exposure to diversity - racial, ethnic, cultural, religious, etc. which was grossly lacking here.
I've returned after 30 years to find this place as backwards as it was when I left.
Here are four "dumb" remarks I've heard from people (HERE IN 740) who never lived elsewhere...
From my cousin regarding homeless shelters in Steubenville: "You don't want to go to the ones here; they are in bad neighborhoods!" This was her response to me when I told her I wanted to talk with some of the shelter directors about the state of homelessness in the area. By the way, I was homeless in Cleveland for 6 months in an area that had 135 registered sex offenders within a 6 block area, all were released from prison to the men's shelter.
Here are "dumb" remarks #2, #3, #4, - all from the same person; someone I was considering renting an apartment to:
#2 -"You're not a liberal are you? I don't know how I feel about renting from a liberal!" When he asked why I left and why I returned. I told him it was odd to be back home after so many years of interacting with diverse cultures.
#3 -"They aren't radical, are they?" - he admitted he was a born-again Christian when I told him I had friends that were Muslim. (The only radical Muslim I know was from the Bronx and was a die-hard Yankees fan and drove a bus in Cleveland. Maybe I should have not said Muslim and die-hard in the same sentence).
#4 - "I don't think I want to have friends that are Muslim because they don't believe in Jesus; they worship Muhammad!" WRONG! WRONG! This is something that is being taught in evangelical churches.
#5 - Is just plain old pathetic redneck / racial / ethnic profiling mentality: After 9/11 a Muslim woman was stopped heading east on I-70 in Belmont County and she and her children were detained for over 9 hours because some yahoo reported a terrorist was driving on the highway.
I believe in God, am not an atheist. I abandoned religion a long time ago after being invited to a church and hearing the preacher proclaim to the congregation that "everyone is lying to you. Your parents and family are lying to you; your friends are lying to you. All you need is this church. I am the only person you will learn the truth from; I am the only one who will not lie to you!"
And since when does an atheist have no moral standards; not teach their children right from wrong, to not be kind to others?
I abandoned religion a long time ago after being invited to a church and hearing the preacher proclaim to the congregation that "everyone is lying to you. Your parents and family are lying to you; your friends are lying to you. All you need is this church. I am the only person you will learn the truth from; I am the only one who will not lie to you!" It may have rubbed you the wrong way, but the preacher was not wrong. Jesus wanted his followers to abandon their families, give away all their possessions, accept a life of poverty, and follow Jesus as an infallible preacher who would rely on the charity of others.
He even refuses to let one follower leave to bury his dead father....telling him "Let the dead bury their own dead".
Christian family values of the Bible. Makes the heart swell.
Hitler was a Catholic and used religion to further his agenda. While Hitler wasn't a practicing Catholic, he still claimed to believe in a Creator or Providence. According to Wikipedia Hitler even claimed Divine Providence wanted him to lead.
I wish those who use Hitler as an example of an Atheist would look up the history. These days it is so easy with Google and all the other search engines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kids bullying other kids: teenagers beating up or killing homeless people - are their parents atheists? No, their parents haven't been there or taken the time to teach their children right from wrong. These parents cart their kids off to dance class, soccer - off to other people to keep their kids busy and supposedly out of trouble while than nourishing their kids at home.
L.C. I will be commenting soon on my blog about videos I found on YouTube of 17 year-olds from Wooster who simulate rape and murder of gays and homeless people in their videos. There is also a movement of kids committing violent acts against children who have red hair and freckles. Those kids are called Gingers.
10 comments:
Does this mean that the sale of Jesus Tee-Shirts is on the decline?
Yea!
Just let me know what atheists use as moral standards, and I'll let you know how I feel about this.
(Like, is "Thou shalt not murder" an OK rule, or is right and wrong always determined by a popular vote or what?)
I wouldn't know what "atheists" use as moral standards.
Atheism isn't a theology or philosophy.
It is the lack of belief in a supernatural being. That's all.
Your question would be like asking where do bald people get their morals from. Doesn't make sense.
My own morals come from a basic belief in treating others in the manner that I would like to be treated myself.
Don't cause harm to others. If it doesn't affect you or anyone else, it's none of your bees-wax.
Along that lines.
There is no argument that morals for Humans comes from religion. They don't. That's just fact.
Where do you get your morals from?
The Bible has SOME decent moral ideas, but it also contains plenty of batshit crazy ones as well (slavery, polygamy, incest, stoning, etc.).
Morals are personal. Laws are based on society and the people living in them. All you need to know about letting relgion dictate morality and laws can be found by paying a visit to Saudi Arabia. Enjoy.
Your "personal morality" sounds great to me. You'll find The Golden Rule a common thread running through most of the world's major religions
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity)
including Christianity where it's often phrased, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
To bad not everyone shares your personal morality. Guys like Hitler for example.
Hitler: Get in the oven, you gay-loving, black-loving, Jew-loving dog.
Lemmy: Wait a minute, you can't do this to me! My personal morality wouldn't allow me to do it to you.
Hitler: So what. My personal morality is "I'm in charge, so I do whatever the hell I want."
Lemmy: But you can't do that.
Hitler: Why not?
Lemmy: Because it's wrong.
Hitler: Why do I care what you think is wrong? I don't give a batshit about your personal morality, and I resent that you are trying to impose it on me. I'm stronger than you. So, get in.
--
See, once morality is viewed as "personal" you are at the mercy of the people in power. If they are decent human beings, then you're OK. But if not, lovely little tourist attractions like Dachau might start to spring up. (In the extreme, I know, but it is possible.)
I'm sure you are familiar with the term "natural law"--the theory that there exist laws that are set by nature and therefore have validity everywhere. (A brief overview: http://www.radicalacademy.com/philnaturallaw.htm)
I believe that you have said in past conversations that you acknowledge the existence of some of these objective laws. (Sexual abuse of a child, for example, is objectively wrong.) The existence of these existing natural laws implies that morality is not personal, but communal.
I asked where atheists get there morals from PRECISELY because it makes as much sense as asking where bald people get their morals from. They get them from nowhere. They pick and choose their "personal morality" from whatever dish looks good to them at the time, or maybe they don't even bother to even THINK but simply sit on the couch and stuff their face with Cheetos all day long.
If you told me that the number of people who are as naturally virtuous as you, Lemmy, are swelling, I would not be so concerned. But I cannot get excited to hear that there is an increase in the number of people who believe morality is a personal decision. Some "personal moralities" are evil, and since laws are determined by the votes of individuals, what is to stop our country from becoming another Nazi Germany if evil carries the popular vote?
"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." -Martin Luther King.
To answer the question, "Where do you get your morals from?" If you mean "morals" as in "the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character" the best explanation of morality I believe is found in the teachings of the Catholicism. A good resource is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I'm sure you can google it yourself.
including Christianity where it's often phrased, "Love your neighbor as yourself."Right alongside "death to first born children" and "kill your son to prove you love me".
To bad not everyone shares your personal morality. Guys like Hitler for example. We agree.
Hitler: Why do I care what you think is wrong? I don't give a batshit about your personal morality, and I resent that you are trying to impose it on me. I'm stronger than you. So, get in.Yes, it's scary when twisted morals are given power isn't it?
But I cannot get excited to hear that there is an increase in the number of people who believe morality is a personal decision. You sound like you don't have much faith in people. And you sound like you have even less faith in people who don't have to attest their values to an invisible creator.
I'm more afraid of people who NEED something or someone telling them what's right or wrong. People like those that joined the Nazi party you mentioned. Or those that mutilate the genitals of children because their "leader" tells them "god" wants them to.
It's the followers we need to be afraid of, not those that can think for themselves.
Almost like you were making my argument for me there.
"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." -Martin Luther King.Great quote from a great man. If he were alive today he'd probably be labeled a subversive homeland terrorist by Faux News and Wing Nut Daily.
I believe is found in the teachings of the Catholicism. A good resource is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I'm sure you can google it yourself.I'm glad that works for you......but I'm familiar with the morality, leadership, and history of the Catholic Church, and it's just not something I could be a follower of.
I am so tired of the he or she is "a Christian" thing when I am about to do business with someone. What exactly does that mean?
Other than career, one of the things I left this valley for was exposure to diversity - racial, ethnic, cultural, religious, etc. which was grossly lacking here.
I've returned after 30 years to find this place as backwards as it was when I left.
Here are four "dumb" remarks I've heard from people (HERE IN 740) who never lived elsewhere...
From my cousin regarding homeless shelters in Steubenville: "You don't want to go to the ones here; they are in bad neighborhoods!" This was her response to me when I told her I wanted to talk with some of the shelter directors about the state of homelessness in the area. By the way, I was homeless in Cleveland for 6 months in an area that had 135 registered sex offenders within a 6 block area, all were released from prison to the men's shelter.
Here are "dumb" remarks #2, #3, #4, - all from the same person; someone I was considering renting an apartment to:
#2 -"You're not a liberal are you? I don't know how I feel about renting from a liberal!" When he asked why I left and why I returned. I told him it was odd to be back home after so many years of interacting with diverse cultures.
#3 -"They aren't radical, are they?" - he admitted he was a born-again Christian when I told him I had friends that were Muslim.
(The only radical Muslim I know was from the Bronx and was a die-hard Yankees fan and drove a bus in Cleveland. Maybe I should have not said Muslim and die-hard in the same sentence).
#4 - "I don't think I want to have friends that are Muslim because they don't believe in Jesus; they worship Muhammad!" WRONG! WRONG! This is something that is being taught in evangelical churches.
#5 - Is just plain old pathetic redneck / racial / ethnic profiling mentality: After 9/11 a Muslim woman was stopped heading east on I-70 in Belmont County and she and her children were detained for over 9 hours because some yahoo reported a terrorist was driving on the highway.
I believe in God, am not an atheist. I abandoned religion a long time ago after being invited to a church and hearing the preacher proclaim to the congregation that "everyone is lying to you. Your parents and family are lying to you; your friends are lying to you. All you need is this church. I am the only person you will learn the truth from; I am the only one who will not lie to you!"
And since when does an atheist have no moral standards; not teach their children right from wrong, to not be kind to others?
And what faith are members of the KKK?
I abandoned religion a long time ago after being invited to a church and hearing the preacher proclaim to the congregation that "everyone is lying to you. Your parents and family are lying to you; your friends are lying to you. All you need is this church. I am the only person you will learn the truth from; I am the only one who will not lie to you!"
It may have rubbed you the wrong way, but the preacher was not wrong. Jesus wanted his followers to abandon their families, give away all their possessions, accept a life of poverty, and follow Jesus as an infallible preacher who would rely on the charity of others.
He even refuses to let one follower leave to bury his dead father....telling him "Let the dead bury their own dead".
Christian family values of the Bible. Makes the heart swell.
Hitler was a Catholic and used religion to further his agenda. While Hitler wasn't a practicing Catholic, he still claimed to believe in a Creator or Providence. According to Wikipedia Hitler even claimed Divine Providence wanted him to lead.
I wish those who use Hitler as an example of an Atheist would look up the history. These days it is so easy with Google and all the other search engines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To be fair, I don't think Justine was using Hitler as an example of an Atheist or Atheist thinking.
I think she was using him as an example of twisted individual morals.
But if you see my reply, you will find that her example only strengthens the argument of individual thought/morality vs. the follower mentality.
You are correct though....Adolf was not an Atheist.
Kids bullying other kids: teenagers beating up or killing homeless people - are their parents atheists? No, their parents haven't been there or taken the time to teach their children right from wrong. These parents cart their kids off to dance class, soccer - off to other people to keep their kids busy and supposedly out of trouble while than nourishing their kids at home.
L.C. I will be commenting soon on my blog about videos I found on YouTube of 17 year-olds from Wooster who simulate rape and murder of gays and homeless people in their videos. There is also a movement of kids committing violent acts against children who have red hair and freckles. Those kids are called Gingers.
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